PART 3

Welcome back to our Q&A series with Mark Loughney. Following the positive feedback and great interaction with the launch of this interview, we submitted more of our followers' questions to Mark. Thank you to everyone who has been taking an active interest in our project. Read more from Mark below...

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Would you consider Pyrrhic Defeat as a single piece or a collection of works?

It is definitely a single piece, but I continually add to it. I guess we can call it a work in progress for now. I'm adding to it every chance I get. In the past month, since sending 650 pieces to MoMA PS1 , I've added an additional 23 pieces to the project, so I think at this pace I'll be able to hit 750 by the end of the year. The only problem I foresee is not being able to find new sitters, but if the criminal justice system keeps stuffing guys in here, that shouldn't be a big hurdle.

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What would it mean to you if they were exhibited individually?

I think that would miss the point of what I'm trying to convey with the piece. However, each individual portrait does have merit of its own. These portraits are a way for my sitters to assert and reclaim the humanness that the criminal justice system tries to strip from us. When I post a single portrait to my lnstagram page you can see the man and you may look at his eyes or visage and it might make you wonder about that particular man. You might see a name tattooed on his neck and wonder if that is his girl friend or wife or child. You might wonder how he got the scar or how he lost his eye... and these thoughts are all in the realm of empathy. You see that man as a human man, like yourself. So the individual portrait of the man does help to usher the viewer in for the much broader next step, which is viewing the collective group of portraits. But viewing the individual portrait and viewing the whole collection all at once brings two very different emotional responses. When you stand amidst the full collection it produces an overwhelming feeling. Your eyes dart back and forth from face to face and it's almost too much to take in, much like the actual prison experience a prisoner feels when he or she first hits general population. It produces a reflexive anxiety. I have to give a disclaimer here, because I've never seen the full collection displayed all at once, but I've gotten a bit of feedback from the prior installations of the piece. Also, in 2018 when the project was still small, I got 140 four by six inch photo prints of the portraits and taped them to my cell wall. The feeling I got from just that small version of the piece was more than enough to convince and reassure me that a public viewership should definitely see it. But, back to the question: Although I do post individual portraits on social media, I think it would best serve the project to only display them as a single large piece.

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How long do you see yourself working on Pyrrhic Defeat? Will it come to an end? 

Well, my goal is 1,000 pieces... but if I surpass that goal and I'm still here, I'll keep drawing portraits right up until the minute I walk out. That's when it will end. Since I'll be on parole for just about the rest of my life, there's a good chance that I'll be hauled back to prison at some point for any number of seemingly innocuous reasons (like sleeping at a friend 's house or eating dinner at a restaurant that has a wine list) for an indeterminate amount of time. So, if that ever happens (which I pray it doesn't) I'll start right back up with the project. I need Pyrrhic Defeat. Especially in here. It gives me purpose... a purpose that I cling to like a life raft.

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Do you see it evolving into another project? 

Actually, I've thought about this quite a bit. I often wonder what options I'll have upon release for work, if I'll ever be able to have a career in art... things like that. The odds are against me, so I doubt I'll ever really be able to support a comfortable life as an

artist... but I'll definitely be able to handle an uncomfortable life as an activist artist! So I've thought a lot about projects to shine my version of light on issues like homelessness and poverty and other social justice issues. I think I've got the "street cred" part down enough to be able to engage with enough sitters for a large collection, and once the Marking Time show at MoMA PSI goes up, I' m hoping it will validate my work within the art world, which will facilitate possibilities for those portrait projects. My personal trajectory isn't what I'm really concerned with at the moment. I've always been at the bottom and I'm OK here. I want to be able to do my part and fight for social justice for all of us, and I'm in a unique station from which to do that - at the bottom. It's a great place to practice suffering. It's a great opportunity to become worthy of that suffering, in a way. So that's my goal. If it means drawing other prisoners, that's what I'll do. If soon I'm tapped to draw homeless poor people or wounded veterans or any group of people who are suffering or marginalized, that's what I'll devote the project to.

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What was the process like working with MoMA PS1? What does exhibiting your work there mean to you?

MoMA PS1 is an incredible institution! It has a very unique back story for a museum. Dr. Nicole Fleetwood is the guest curator for the Marking Time show and has made sure that the whole process has been a very positive experience for all the artists involved. She's been working closely with the staff there to get the show installed and shown in the most impactful way possible. I'm thrilled to have my work in this groundbreaking show. Since its beginning in 1976, PS1 has always promoted experimental art that other museums might not have taken the chance on. Alanna Heiss founded it in an abandoned school building in Long Island City, NY. She's a bit of a rebel and that legacy at PS1 is very appealing to me. In 2000, PS1 became part of MoMA and in 2010 was renamed MoMA PS1. MoMA collectively consists of The Museum Of Modern Art in Manhattan and MoMA PS1 across the bridge in Long Island City. MoMA PS1 is like the super-cool, risk-taking, stay-out-all-night little sister that all MoMA's friends want to hang out with, so I really couldn't be happier or gotten luckier than when Dr. Fleetwood arranged this whole deal. In 1981, one of my art heroes, Jean-Michel Basquiat, was part of a group show at PS1 called New York / New Wave, which launched his career. I've been trying to summon his spirit to invite him to the show!

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What does a typical day look like for you? 

Yikes. Well , I'll give you the condensed, palatable version of this answer. A loud dissonant buzzer goes off at 6:14 a.m. and everyone must stand and be counted by two guards. Then we get a small cup of cereal, a small muffin, and 4 ounces of milk for breakfast. Everybody goes back to their cells until we do that again for lunch and dinner. Standing counts again at 12:30 p.m., 4:15 p.m., and 9:15 p.m. During the short times when meals are being served is when I quickly get the portraits done. I exercise in my cell and draw and paint, read and write. We get to go outside in a small yard for an hour on the weekend. I'll explain it all in detail once I get out of here. When your hand is in the mouth of a dog, you say " nice doggie."

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Have you felt the effects of the renewed discussion surrounding prison reform?

Yes, definitely! It comes as great waves of hope that quickly get smashed and replaced by despair and frustration. There has been nothing BUT discussion. Pennsylvania recently passed probation reform legislation that will make a small difference, but the problem is huge. Way bigger than these palliative fix-up jobs . Change needs to happen in a comprehensive and truly meaningful, measurable way. Where I'm from we have a saying: "No matter how much mayonnaise you put on chicken crap you can't make chicken salad." The reform legislation that has recently happened is just a heap of mayonnaise in an at tempt to make the chicken crap taste a little less awful for a second so we briefly forget what we're eating. Real change will only happen when we address the heart of the issue. Convictions create convicts, and prison doesn't help a broken person.

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How does it/ could it affect you? 

So far, no thing that has been implemented has helped my situation or any of the hundreds of guys I look at every day. It's all just business as usual.

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What would you like us to leave this interview thinking about? 

I would ask you to come up with some reasons why you think countries similar to the USA, with capitalist economic systems, do not have anything like the carceral problem that America has. Why are there so many prisons in America? Why so many people caged in them? (2.4 million). Why do the rich people, corporations, and "white collar" criminals get away with horrible crimes against people and the environment? Why do poor people tread a gauntlet of pitfalls? These are not rhetorical questions, they have answers. I can' t accurately and succinctly answer them for you in this interview, but I want to recommend that if you have an interest in any of these issues, an interest in ethics theory or criminology or sociology... or even if you just have a gut feeling that our world COULD be a better place, you should read about these issues. Educate yourself. The work is your responsibility, though. No one is going to put this information in your head for you, you have to seek it. A great starting place would be to read The Rich Get Richer And The Poor Get Prison. Another very important thing you can do is become purpose driven in your life. Think about what your purpose is today, just for today. It might end up being a lifelong purpose or you may already know what your purpose is... but if you don' t know yet, find a purpose just for today. Make today count. Chances are you'll pick a way to be good or to make other people's lives better. Good work. Then do it again tomorrow. 

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